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Transcript
Arjita: Hi Nolan, welcome to the creative operations podcast by Artwork Flow. Thank you for taking out the time today and doing this with us. Really happy to have you on the show. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience?
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for having me on. I'm excited to be here and I'm looking forward to this conversation. Um, my name is Nolan McCoy. I'm the head of video and creative content at a company called Chili Piper. We're a B2B, uh, scheduling routing and conversion platform for revenue teams.
Arjita: Interesting. Thank you. Thanks for that introduction, Ulin. Let's start. Let's jump right in. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about how your journey so far has been from being a hands-on creative in photo, video and audio creation to becoming the head of video and creative content at Chili Piper. What does the job entail? What does it entail to be the head of content at such an innovative company, especially in the B2B space?
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, my journey into the role where I find myself now was from really a traditional video background. I went to film school. I was originally self-taught and just kind of started as a hobby. And then, you know, as photography equipment started to lend itself to video, I found myself also creating videos and found that I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed storytelling and communicating emotion and making people feel something. And so I decided to go to school for it.
After school, I just kind of was like, you know, am I either going to be a wedding videographer or am I going to be a filmmaker? You know, it kind of seems like the two paths, you know, at least to make money with video. And then I found myself, I kind of fell into marketing. I'm sure a lot of other marketers can relate to that. I found myself filling a video need at a B2B tech company who had, you know, a marketing team that needed video and needed hands on filming and editing and content creation.
And that was really my crash course into marketing. And then since then I've, you know, gone from company to company that needed to leverage video and needed to activate video as a marketing arm. Uh, and so almost three years ago, I found myself in the same position coming into chili Piper, let's activate video, let's get brand awareness. Let's build credibility in our space. And I guess the rest is history. So my job now looks a lot more than video. I'm obviously doing videos, I'm overseeing contractors that are helping us with video. And then I also produce and edit our branded podcast, which is targeted at Demangen personas. And it's called Demangen Chat. And we've been running that for a little over two years. And then I also just help out with other creative things that don't fit, I guess, in a traditional random act of creativity, I guess, and then I also oversee our social media.
Arjita: Interesting. So Nolan, B2B specially, right? It's considered not a very sexy space for marketeers compared to say something like a B2C. But I'm, Chili Piper is one of those companies that has always experimented with different formats, putting video on the forefront. So what do you have to say about that? Where do you think that business metric comes in when it comes to creating impact through real quality and thought provoking creatives, especially in the context of B2B.
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, so I don't know if a lot of people will like my answer when it comes to how you measure the impact of some kind of creative content in your brand, because most of the time you can't. And that is okay. I think it's okay. Because what you're doing is, you know, if you're measuring things like impressions and engagement rates and, you know, retention rates on videos, if you're measuring, I guess, eyeball consumption. Then eventually you'll find that hopefully converting into business. And it's hard to attribute that. One way that we tackle that is when you take a demo of Chili Piper, there's a required empty text field on our demo form that says, how did you hear about us? And that allows us to get any response because we're in so many different places and doing so many different things. If we have a dropdown with like five different social searches, and we only limit to like five things.
We do a lot more than just five marketing motions in other places. So we like to leave that empty and oftentimes you will see YouTube, LinkedIn, you'll see, I saw your, we filmed something together in an event or things like that. So it's kind of an investment into the unknown, but because you're reaching eyeballs and you're getting impressions and engagements on your content, people are remembering it if it's different enough. And if you're breaking the status quo a little bit. So it's more, I like to think of it more as, how can we stop the scroll, disrupt pattern interruptions and make people think differently and eventually that will convert down the road.
Arjita: That's a very interesting thought. So basically what you're saying is that someone is scrolling on LinkedIn, for example. What kind of content do you push out there that makes them stop the scrolling thing and then somehow create that mind space for the brand in that person's mind?
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, so one example is that it's not a video, it's not a thought leadership post, and it's not even like a GIF. Well, it was a GIF, but something that's not normal, I guess, to see in the timeline is, we took a screenshot of a LinkedIn post, and we Photoshopped it in a way that it looked like, you know, if you have, you know, a rectangle, and if you broke it in half, and you have, it looks like two posts. But what we were doing is we were actually just putting half of a fake post in this image and I wrote on a piece of paper, double your inbound conversion rates to Chili Piper, and I stuck one of our stickers to this piece of paper. It looks like a five-year-old drew it, like I don't have the best handwriting, and then I literally just set my phone up on my desk, got a blank wall, and I just filmed my hands coming up with this piece of paper. And then I cut that out in After Effects and did a whole bunch of stuff to it and overlaid it on top of this timeline. And so you're scrolling, and it looks like you're scrolling past this, you know, it was a screenshot of a different post we had made way back and so it had all these likes and stuff. Then all of a sudden this piece of paper is coming up. As soon as you interact, the start of it, it comes up and this piece of paper comes up and covers all the content. So you're starting to read this nice post that got a lot of new, wow, it's got a lot of likes. And all of a sudden this comes up and interrupts your scroll. And that was so successful. We ran it as an ad and it became our most highest converting ad of all time because it stopped the scroll. It broke the, what are we used to seeing? How can we do that differently in a way that makes people say, hey, that's kind of cool. If they're doing this differently, they probably are doing things differently with their product too.
Arjita: Yeah, and that's important, I guess, in an industry like sales and marketing, because there are already so many products out there. And, you know, there's, I mean, you can do differentiation at a product level, but the customer really experiences the first touch point is always like the marketing and the creatives. So how can you differentiate at that moment when, you know, you do have that very little moment of time to get someone's mind space. That's very interesting.
Nolan McCoy: Exactly.
Arjita: Great. So, you know, any. So what does your cross collaboration with other teams look like? Like you, you're the creative director, you lead the video. And so how does a typical, you know, brief look like and where does it come from? Does it come from the management or is it more from the sales team? And how do you get some of those? Like how do you get your hands on those consumer insights and you know, try and produce the best content that you can for the company.
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, I would break it maybe 50-50. Half of it would be internal requests coming in, and then the other half would be looking for opportunities to create content to support that motion. So for the first one, it's pretty simple, I guess. We have an Asana board, and I have a request link, and I have a form that you have to fill out.
Nolan McCoy: Anybody in the company can fill this out and they have to fill out this very detailed request. It requires a brief that I made a template of and it needs these details. And then they can submit that. And then by the time I'm getting it, I've already basically had a kickoff meeting with the information that I've read. So it's very efficient. I don't need to have a meeting about a meeting. And then we can jump right into actually moving forward with the content. And so really, in a way, it's almost like an internal agency where inbound requests are coming.
The sales team needs help making this 10 minute demo video or demand Jen needs help making this little, you know, add to run and test. Um, or, you know, uh, content marketing might need this little gift for something else. And then the other half, like I mentioned before, would be, you know, we're in meetings looking at our next quarter and we're looking at, you know, what are, what are our big kind of marketing motions and how can we, um,
We like to think in ways like how we can break the internet with this idea, which is a lofty goal. Breaking the internet is a big goal, but it kind of helps reshape, you know, is this a break the internet idea or is this just a cool idea? Because oftentimes in brainstorming, we all get very attached to our own ideas. We're like, I thought of this, I feel like it's cool, therefore I love it and I'm not going to let go of it and I'm holding tight to it. But you know, if you kind of create this culture of creative feedback and nobody's getting offended, there's no ego in it.
Arjita: Thanks.
Nolan McCoy: That we all kind of ask, can this break the internet? I don't know if it can. I think it's cool because we think it's cool, but will they think it's cool? And that's the most, you know, that's a different topic, right? But there isn't like a set, like brief, or there's not like a certain process because every content piece has to be different. There's no template. Obviously you build a model and it's like, okay, when we record a podcast episode, all of these dependencies kick off. But when it comes to creating that new content, there isn't a copy paste. There isn't anything like that.
Arjita: Right. How many times have you broken the internet?
Nolan McCoy: Um, that would probably be a subjective, you know, answer. I can say that yesterday, as of yesterday, we had, um, a LinkedIn account that appears to be Snoop Dogg, like one of our posts on LinkedIn. Um, so I don't know if that's breaking the internet, but like, I don't know how Snoop Dogg found our content. But that post that he liked or someone liked appeared to be Snoop Dogg.
Arjita: Okay, that's really cool.
Nolan McCoy: Um, that post didn't do very well. Okay. And that's often like very, like the post itself wasn't like this viral post, but. A good marketer can capture that moment and actually spin it into something. So what we did is we screenshot it, Snoop Dogg liked it, put a big orange circle on it and made a post with all these Snoop Dogg puns and B2B. And we said, you know, B2B now has the DO double G and likes all this stuff and made this thing and that post now has like 10,000 impressions and all these reposts and all these comments. And now our brand awareness and perception is like, so if Snoop Dogg is liking chili Piper content, I should probably follow chili Piper and like, you know, hang around chili Piper. So it's again, back to there's no template. It's like, let's see how we can continue to, again, it's not about Snoop Dogg liking this post that did okay. It's about the moment and how it relates back to
our brand, which we want to be cool and different. And I think Snoop Dogg's cool and different. So it's also complimentary. But to say how many times we broke on the internet, I don't know, it's up in the air.
Arjita: Definitely, you can definitely...
Arjita: Interesting. And how is the response on the podcast? I mean, you know, we're doing this and I'm curious, so as to, you know, how does it look like when you're 35 episodes in like, what kind of impact did it generate for your community? Did you get some, you know, really good response in terms of, you know, people actually listening and learning and what was it like?
Nolan McCoy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we relaunched the podcast in 2021. Originally, it had just been like, let's get on Zoom and record for 40 minutes and publish that on YouTube. And that was the original podcast. And then the person that was hosting left the company and it kind of just settled down and didn't do anything. So when I came in, in 2021, I said, I have podcasting experience and like, well, we really want to restart this podcast.
And so I worked with our head of demand at the time and we kind of re-imagined what this podcast could be. We worked on strategy and angles and narratives. And I don't know how many episodes we published, but it's hard with podcasts because you want like millions of listeners, right? Because you're like, the team of podcasting is huge. But the actual total relevant market of podcasting in...
B2B, which is a niche, innovative topic of B2B is a niche. And then like your POV of a topic of a thing in B2B is a niche of a niche of a niche. And so it's always hard when you're presenting numbers to leadership with podcast metrics, because like let's say 2021, we only got like 18,000 downloads across maybe like, maybe 30 episodes or something like that. Right. And so
That's like you look at that and you're like, wow, this other LinkedIn post, we can get 20,000 views on one post. But you have to think about the difference between a podcast. And I like to share this perspective a lot. Podcasts are, I think, one of the most intimate pieces of content you can ship as a brand. And that's because I'm wearing these earbuds right now, and I can go out and I can go anywhere and I can have somebody talking directly into my head.
and like feeding me information, right? As if I'm hanging out with them. I can hear their intonation. I can hear how they're passionate about something. I can hear things that don't come across in maybe a content article and can be consumed in ways more conveniently than a video or an article. And so it's this soup, it's this interesting intersection of like, like intimate, like hanging out with this person and learning from them and almost absorbing them as if you're having a coffee chat. And so,
Those 18,000 people, I would consider them more qualified listeners or audience members than a hundred thousand impressions on LinkedIn. Because we know LinkedIn is a social platform and it's pushing out to a lot of people, obviously it wants to go to a relevant audience, but I still think that a smaller part, and we've seen, do you answer your question, I guess, around about ways on that self-reported attribution form?
We see a lot of times, you know, I love your podcast, I've listened to your podcast, heard your podcast. This, and it's not like, in my opinion, I don't feel like we're doing, obviously we, you always feel like you can do better, right? But what we're seeing is it's resonating. And that's the point. If you have a podcast with a thousand listeners in a whole season, and it resonated with 50% of those people and they all become buying customers, that's 500 new customers, right? And so it really does just come down to how good your content is. How good is it resonating? How much is it making them feel something that makes them nod their head and go, yes, I believe what you're saying, and therefore I would like to buy from you when the time is right, because I trust you. And that's at the end of the day what matters, but we get so caught up in vanity metrics with podcasting. It's so hard.
Arjita: Yeah, we've just started this and, you know, we do hope and you know why we started this. So we interviewed a bunch of people in the creative ops space for a few of our content pieces. And, you know, a lot of them mentioned that there isn't a lot of content out there for this as an industry. There are, you know, case studies, there are some ebooks, but they did mention that a lot of learning that happens for them happens over podcasts like the design listen to design podcast and even I do that like when I'm when I'm in a metro or if I am you know driving my car I just put on some informational piece of content and I get a lot of ideas from there as well which is why you know we also started this podcast and it's been really interesting at least for me to host and you know get a bunch of different guests.
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, and to your point, like even the Apple watch that you're wearing right now has the ability to download podcasts to it and you can pair AirPods to it. Like what other device allows you to like what there's no other content piece that you can consume on your Apple watch. Like talking about something that's always with you. It's just a perspective shift. And I think if you think about that potential of being along with your audience, it also helps you create that more authentic content because you're not thinking in terms of like build it and they will come.
Arjita: Absolutely.
Nolan McCoy: It's more of building it for five people now, and that will organically grow as word of mouth, as things progress down the line. And it's true, there isn't a lot of content for the creative space in B2B, because traditionally it is like old school creative director agency content, which is, there's amazing agencies making amazing content, but when we're thinking about like B2B startups, creative ops, marketing creative like it is a different lens than just creative.
Arjita: Absolutely. And that's why we're building this, and hopefully we'll get somewhere with it. So that brings me to my next question. And you also did mention Asana. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you project manage this entire production piece? You mentioned Asana. How do you manage your team? How do you collaborate? Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
Nolan McCoy: Yeah. So, I mean, we're a fully remote company. We don't even have a centralized office or home base. Everybody is around the globe. And so we really use three different tools to collaborate. We use Asana, we use Slack and we use Google suite. So, you know, we're using Google docs to, you know, write things. And we're slacking on different channels to collaborate. And then we're using Asana to kind of organize as a center of truth for where things are. And so.
When I'm collaborating with freelancers, I like to set up Slack Connect channels so that they're actually in the org. Obviously, they're not added to every channel that exists, which would be probably not, you know, probably IT is not going to be happy about that. So having them in like their own Slack Connect kind of area, and then I can add them to DM groups with relevant people to work on projects. And then similarly, we will actually pay for an Asana seat for our most recurring freelancers as well, so that they're in our process and they can comment and add things. Just because it's just worth it timewise, like if I'm trying to be a middleman project managing, like can I freelance or send me an email or a Slack and then I need to update that in Asana and that you extrapolate that over project over project over month over month, like what's my time worth, right? At the end of the day, one Asana, one or two Asana seats is not gonna break the bank.
And so then practically in Asana, I just have one board. It's titled video. I've never changed the name, but it's really just any project I'm working on. And that's where those inbound requests go from that Asana form that I mentioned. And then I have it broken out in a Kanban style, but I've just titled each column of the Kanban request, pre-production, in production, post-production, approval, complete and stuck.
Nolan McCoy: And then I can pull those projects through those different stages, pre-production, post-production. That's kind of coming from the video background a little bit, but it does, it can obviously apply to podcasting and other things. So obviously those requests go in the request queue. Pre-pod is like the planning, the brief, the brainstorming, all that. In production we're making things, we're filming things, we're drafting things, making mockups. Post-production would be that polishing process. Approval would be, obviously you're getting approval.
complete as self-explanatory and stuck is kind of like we started it, it kind of didn't make it through production or it kind of stalled because we changed directions, but I don't want to delete this. I kind of want to just keep it in my little back pocket drawer as like maybe I can pull from this later on. And then I have a sauna automation set up across all of those so that when a task is dragged into any one of those, it updates a status and says this thing's in pre-prod or it, you know, it's...
It updates the tag that goes with the column it's in. And similarly, if I change that dropdown status change, if I change it, it'll manually or automatically move it over to that relevant just to help. Cause again, what's my time worth. And if I like spending time, like updating the status of the tags or all this stuff, like I can just do it by literally dragging to a new column.
Arjita: Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, we even use some of the most of our apps to talk to each other and then I love Slack Connect. Like you can literally bring all of your contract workers, all freelancers on one channel and you don't have to like go look into emails or, you know, just open, keep opening your WhatsApp. I absolutely love that feature about Slack. Do you also do all of your approvals as well on Asana itself? Like just getting comments on videos from people or just you know making changes how
Nolan McCoy: Um, yeah, so we used Frame.io for a while because that just is a part of Adobe. We did use that for a bit, but it almost was a little bit too official for some of the content we were using, just because it's built for a lot of like, I don't know, it just, it was an unnecessary step for our process. But if we were building out like a major media arm thing, I would totally start doing it again.
Arjita (23:30.35): Okay.
Nolan McCoy: The other tool I didn't mention that's really been helpful for our collaboration from multimedia content production is a tool you're probably familiar with called Descript and that is Descript. Yep. And it's a linear or nonlinear editor, similar to Premiere Pro or something like that, but the differentiator is that it transcribes all your content. And so then you can edit your content by editing a Word doc. So if you want to delete the paragraph that I just said previously, you go and you highlight that text, hit your delete key and those clips snap together and you have the before that and you have the after of what I said. You can remove filler words and all this kind of stuff. It also allows the ability to comment. So if a lot of editing is already happening in script, then the marketing team has seats and they can come in and comment and collaborate there. So that's kind of where that redundancy of Frame.io kind of went away because I find myself editing a lot more in script than I do Premiere and Adobe now just because it's all in the cloud. Everything's saved automatically. I can just send a link. They can open it on their end and the whole transcription based editing is really intuitive for people who don't have a film or video or background. Because just Adobe Premiere can be very daunting. And if I send you a Premiere file, you can't just open it. You need all the source files. You need all things for G-script. I can just send you a link and you'd be working with files straight out of the cloud.
Arjita: Hmm, got it. Any AI tools or upcoming technologies that you've piloted and what's your thought on that?
Nolan McCoy: Yeah, so we use Opus clip for doing our social clips on the podcast or long form thought leadership. And then we also use a tool called Decipher and it's spelled D-E-C-I-P-H-E-R. And we put our long form content in that as well. It just helps us with like YouTube chapters and starting to like writing content out of long form. So if you want to write a thought leadership article out of our conversation, you can pop it and decipher.
Nolan McCoy: It would start, but it would make a title based on what we talked about. So it would probably say something, it would probably summarize something like why Creative Ops matters in B2B and how to differentiate your brand or something like that, right? It would summarize a lot of what we've talked about. And then it would write like an article with maybe like three or four sections with headings and everything and quotes. It would quote you would quote me and like, as if again, what's your time worth, I mean to write, and then we can take that and like build upon it and make it sound less like AI. But those are two of the really core AI tools. Descript, like I mentioned, has a bunch of AI tools as well. They have things like eye contact. So if you're reading a script off a screen, it'll make your eyes look like you're up here. Or yeah, or you can do an AI green screen or there's some sound improvement toggles in there too. And so those are kind of the three AI tools right now that we're happy with.
Arjita: Oh, okay, that's cool. So I think we're already like 26 minutes, I think, over time. And because it was really interesting to chat with you, but I have this one, you know, last question before we move to the fun section, which is, what's your like, what's your most favorite project so far? Like I know, from this conversation that you're a very creative person, you know, doesn't have to be viral, but something that's been really close to your heart.
Nolan McCoy: I mean, recently what's top of mind is we just were at different conferences. We were at an inbound conference in HubSpot inbound. We were at Saster and Dreamforce, kind of the September conference conversion that happens every year. And we had this idea. I had seen this in-person, someone had taken a stencil and they put it on a sidewalk and they had pressure washed it and so this, whatever the design of the stencil was, it cleans the sidewalk. So it actually took dirt off of the sidewalk and put it like a thing that you can't wash off on the sidewalk. But it's like, so it's kind of like graffiti, but it's actually called reverse graffiti because you're cleaning instead of making it dirty. And it's like, how is cleaning the street illegal? You know what I mean? So it's kind of like a gray area. So I'd seen this in person and it was really, really impacting me. That's really cool. And so then we were trying to think of ways to just activate at these events.
Nolan McCoy: And like, again, be top of mind, have brand awareness. And so the idea started there, but having a remote team source pressure washing people in local cities of the, it just, it's a little logistical, with the timeline we were working with, it was like, we like this idea, we believe in this idea, but to pull off this idea, we may need to pivot. And so then as a team, we pivoted and.
Arjita: Okay.
Arjita: Thank you. Yeah.
Arjita: Yeah.
Nolan McCoy: Um, I was actually out on leave at the time and the team was able to pivot to, um, doing like chalk, but we watered down the chalks. So we're actually painting chalk onto the sidewalk in the stencil. And that was still, obviously it would wash away when it rained, but it's still, it's like, how's it illegal to put sidewalk chalk on sidewalk and it's called sidewalk chalk. So it's a great area, but we had these stencils and so in Boston, we leaned into like the Boston accent and so we made a stencil that was like wicked smart scheduling. And that was kind of like our thing that we wrote out for like, for chili peppers, so it said wicked smart scheduling and it had our logo and it had chili pepper. And we just put that literally on the street across from the event center. So people waiting to cross the street to go to the event would see that. And then they'd go in and see our booth eventually and, you know, make that connection. And then in dream force, I think we did like, um, because California is known for having droughts. We had one that said, stop the revenue drought, and then Chili Piper can put our logo. And then I think it's asked where we said something about cleaning up your inbound flow. And that's kind of like when we made the sidewalk dirty. So like clean up your inbound flow with Chili Piper. So that's like something where it's like, it's not video, it's not a podcast, it's not an article, and it's not measurable by any means. The only measure really is like how many social impressions can this get? Or like how many, the hope would be that people post about it.
Like something I've noticed is like a lot of brands, a lot of people appreciate the effort behind a marketing motion rather than the motion itself. And so sometimes it goes back to like the Snoop Dogg thing. It's like it wasn't the post itself that was the thing. It was the action around it. And so often it's like, oftentimes brands get celebrated for buying a billboard and they get more attention on the social post about the billboard they bought than the billboard will get.
You know what I mean? So kind of leans into that a little bit of just like, people will appreciate this effort and it's different. So it stops the scroll and people, you know, are excited about it.
Arjita: Yeah, you know, on that point, I had a story like, so one of our, you know, viral or most viewed post ever has been this just this. So we are into one of our modules is asset management, right. And it's AI. So you can think of it like Google Photos for enterprises, basically, there was a burger. And, you know, that the burger had all the tags that are associated with burger.
Arjita: So it had literally nothing to do with them, but just the fact that there is a burger picture on LinkedIn that I guess got us a lot of views. So like you're very right in the end. So that brings us to a whole circle on how content needs to really cut the monotony and have that brand, which is what your campaign at Inbound also did.
Nolan McCoy: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Yeah, you just don't always know what's going to work. And that's why we like to lean more into like, let's go a little bit more quantity over quality, because if we get too caught up in quality, then we don't ship as much and we can't test as much and we can't see what resonates. And so if we go so high and we're planning so far out in the future, we might miss marketable moments along the way.
Arjita: Absolutely, absolutely. So this brings us to our fun section, which is the quick rapid fire section. So Nolan, what's your favorite film of all times? A movie, basically.
Nolan McCoy: Oh boy, film of all time? You know, I would say the recent new favorite would be the new Top Gun movie that came out last year. Yeah, I would say it's just like, it just checks every single box of what makes a good movie. It's just like.
Arjita: That was a wonderful movie. Totally loved it. Watched it and...
Nolan McCoy: I don't know, it's in some way, it's like how movies used to be made, but it's new, and there was all these cool filming techniques, but the story, it's just like, you can't not put it on, and it's a good underdog winning story.
Arjita: Yeah. It's a lovely movie. Like I've watched it three times. I just love the angles and the production and cinematography in the film. It's absolutely wonderful. So, you know, between writing, cinematography, editing, what do you think is your favorite, you know, course?
Nolan McCoy: None of them. My favorite thing to do is storytelling
Arjita: Is it storytelling? Let me just guess. That's the answer I was expecting so it was a trick question.
Nolan McCoy: Yup, because if any of those, if you do, if you go down any of those paths and you don't start with storytelling, then you just have noise, you just have content, and you end up making random acts of content rather than, you know, actually content that makes someone feel something. Because story is the vehicle that makes us relate, it makes us connect, it makes us understand. And if we don't have story, then we don't have substance. And so it's junk food content, rather than nourishing healthy content.
Arjita: Absolutely. So Nolan, that brings us to the end of the podcast. And thank you so much for taking out the time. I learned a lot from this. I am definitely going to share some of these learnings within my team and have them watch this as well. But yeah, thank you for taking out the time and good luck to good luck to you for everything that you're doing at Chili Piper.
Nolan McCoy: Absolutely. Thank you again for having me on. It's great. Great time. Great talk. Great podcast.
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